Whirimako Black (Ngāti Tuhoe, Ngāti Tūwharetoa, Ngāti Ranginui, Te Whakatōhea, Te Whānau-ā-Apanui) is Aotearoa’s undisputed soul diva, and one of the greatest living performers of waiata Māori. While her work has broken new ground for Māori music, her career has never been easy. When Whirimako released her debut album Hinepukohurangi (Shrouded in the Mist) in 2001, there were very few albums (let alone jazz albums) written and performed in Te Reo Māori. In this episode, Jen visits Whirimako at her home in Ruatoki to find out why she shelved the album for five years … and how learning about her whakapapa gave her the strength to finally set it free.

Find out more about Whirimako Black:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg81FN-pZ24158Wz-4DhaLg

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Narration: Jen: Everybody’s trying to find their way home.

[00:00:55] Whirimako: Tēnā koutou nā kaiwhakarongo o [00:01:00] tēnei hui tuku kia koutou. Kōwai ahau? Nō hea ahau? Ko Whirimako Black tāku ingoa. Nō, nō Ngāi Tūhoe, nō Te Whānau a Apanui, nō Te Whakatohea.  Me ētahi atu iwi te roa no atu o te kimi ona whakapapa. Na reira, he kai waiata ahau, he kaitito waiata, he Whaea, he Kuia, he Tuahine, āe he Mokopuna. Na reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa.

[00:01:37] Narration: Jen: I’m sitting across from Whirimako Black. We’re at her home in Ruatoki, in the Eastern Bay of Plenty, Aotearoa. If I look out the window, I can see the Urupa. And a little further along the way her marae.

[00:01:53] Narration: Jen: A lot of people wouldn’t hesitate to tell you that Whirimako Black is the greatest living performer of Waiata [00:02:00] Māori. Her Tīpuna include famous Tūhoe composers like Mihi-ki-te-kapua. Her uncle was the late great Hirini Melbourne. And her mother Anituatua and sister Rangitunoa, her biggest influences, are poets and songwriters too.

[00:02:17] Narration: Jen: I’ve been trying to line up a kōrero with Whirimako for a few years now because she’s never played it safe. It’s easy to say that in retrospect, and a lot of artists talk about taking risks. But by being herself, a visibly Māori woman, she risked everything. Making life in a racist, narrow-minded industry, a constant struggle.

[00:02:41] Narration: Jen: Whenever I’m with other Māori songwriters, Whirimako comes up as one of their biggest influences. Her debut album ‘Hinepukohurangi’, or ‘Shrouded in the Mist’, was an instant classic. It’s also groundbreaking. When it was released in 1999, there were [00:03:00] very few albums performed entirely in Te Reo Māori, and even fewer by Wāhine Māori.

[00:03:06] Narration: Jen: But it’s also the way she and Billy Christian approached the production and delivery of these ancient Tūhoe Waiata, Mōteatea, and Kaioraora. Even now, 25 years on, this album feels fresh.

[00:03:26] Narration: Jen: For both Whirimako and I, jazz came to us through our Māori mothers. They were listening to artists like Billie Holiday and Ella Fitzgerald. And thanks to our Māmā’s influences, we each developed a soft spot for Dionne Warwick singing the songs of Burt Bacharach.

[00:03:43] Whirimako: Do you know the way to San Jose?

[00:03:45] Jen: Oh.

[00:03:46] Whirimako: Um, yeah.

[00:03:48] Jen: If you see me walking down the street.

[00:03:50] Whirimako: Yeah. Yeah. I love that one…Yeah.

[00:03:54] Whirimako: Each time we meet, walk on [00:04:00] by, walk on by. Make believe - anyway, before I forget all the words, I just stop there.

[00:04:11] Jen: Such a tune.

[00:04:13] Whirimako: Yeah. No, they, they were great songs and they were great times. They were great summers. Uh, when I, uh, reflect back on those songs, I think about summer time.

[00:04:22] Whirimako: But I thought it was magic as a 5-year-old lying in the bathtub with my ears full of water and listening to my inside voice and it was soothing. I didn’t know the lyrics, but I liked sweet melodies. I love sweet melodies, so I knew then, I knew then, ‘wow, that’s a really sweet sound you got there, girl’.

[00:04:48] Narration: Jen: You can already hear how much Whirimako just loves a good song. And that feeling is why she decided to make music her life. But her career has been anything but [00:05:00] easy.

[00:05:00] Narration: Jen: She was one of the first Wāhine Māori to record her Iwi’s Mōteatea and Waiata for a mainstream audience, and not in the way people had come to expect with a Kapa Haka or girls choir backing her. She’s a jazz singer, so naturally she sang her tribal songs in the voice she knew best.

[00:05:23] Whirimako: I do recall a time recording one of my, uh, Waiata Māori, ancient song. And, and, and the beautiful Tama Renata was inside the room. And, and the great Tama Renata was inside the room. And I’d only just started, just started singing the song, recording it. And, and what I saw him do left me baffled. He left the room and never came back again for the rest of the day.

[00:05:54] Whirimako: For the rest of the day. He left the room and I thought, ‘Wow, did I do something wrong?’ And it might have been [00:06:00] too much to bear for him, that this Māori girl goes and gets an ancient song and sings it, and sings it like a jazz, little bit of jazz, not too much, but sings it. I always wanted to sing to acknowledge that if I can’t have access to my marae, if I can’t have access to my Kaupapa, my marae, why can’t I have access to my Mōteatea? Why can’t we all have access to our Mōteatea, if our time is gone and we can’t join a Kapa Haka? There is another way. Why can’t I have my Waiata be my, my, my armour? my Mōteatea be armour to go out to the world?

[00:06:47] Donny Te Kanapu: We’re all…

[00:06:47] Whirimako: Amazing.[00:07:00]

[00:07:01] Donny Te Kanapu: We’re all in there singing.

[00:07:03] Whirimako: Where was all this done?

[00:07:04] Donny Te Kanapu: At the studio here in Tauranga

[00:07:06] Whirimako: Fantastic. Oh what, I haven’t seen those. No, I haven’t seen them.

[00:07:16] Whirimako: OK, where am I gonna find that, son?

[00:07:17] Donny Te Kanapu: It’s on Instagram. They’re all on my, they’re all on my page, on my tab.

[00:07:21] Whirimako: Okay, then. Okay. Okay.

[00:07:25] Donny Te Kanapu: I’ll send them to you.

[00:07:28] Whirimako: Okay…

[00:07:29] Narration: Jen: Whirimako’s son, Donny Te Kanapu Anasta, with us too. He’s been co-writing with Stan Walker and this Waiata is called ‘I Am’, from Ava DuVernay’s film ‘Origin’.

[00:07:40] Narration: Jen: The Waiata was nominated for an Oscar, and it’s clocked millions of streams on Spotify and YouTube. It’s beautiful to think that Te Kanapu’s success is at least partly because of the Kōhanga Reo movement. And in many ways his path is clearer because of the things his mother has spent her life trying to untangle.[00:08:00]

[00:08:00] Donny Te Kanapu: I watched her work very hard before she become famous. Um, for years. Now she come up in a musical scene, an environment that was not well set up for Māori to succeed, and for the particular genre of music. But at the same time, there was a big renaissance happening in the Māori world. Um, now, particularly my mother, when she was coming up, her command of the language was at a very high level, at a native level, right? So she had the special, um, how would you say, ace up her sleeve, so to speak, in the scene. But there wasn’t much commercial business support opportunity for her in those times. So she struggled and worked very hard, unnoticed for a long time. So in those times, I knew, you know, she had a great gift, but it was just quite a natural part of life.[00:09:00]

[00:09:01] Narration: Jen: Whirimako lived in Australia for nine years. She learned music theory at the Sydney Conservatorium, and she sang in clubs when she could get a gig. But let’s just say…Australia wasn’t ready for a Māori jazz singer.

[00:09:15] Whirimako: I never, never got to where I wanted to be when my brother bought that one way ticket to Australia. I never got the opportunity. I never got the opportunity.

[00:09:25] Whirimako: Things might’ve been different had I got into the Australian music industry. I might not have been singing in Te Reo Māori. Things might have turned out differently because I didn’t - you know, doors open and close. That door wasn’t open for me yet, so I came home to open that door, no matter how long it took. And there were times like, ‘What is the matter with everybody?’

[00:09:50] Narration: Jen: You come back from Australia, back from Gadigal Country, Sydney, and when you arrive home here, [00:10:00] your sister greets you and she welcomes you home with a Waiata. Can you tell me about that moment and what that moment meant for you?

[00:10:09] Whirimako: I don’t know why I feel like I wanna cry, just channeling that feeling back then. She sung the song that I sang Tama Renata, walked out of the room on.

[00:10:23] Whirimako: She sung that song, and at that time I did not know my Whakapapa to that composer of that song at all, but it was a song I grew up hearing all the time when we were on Marae. And it didn’t necessarily mean that Tūhoe we were singing it either, because it was a time when we’d forgotten a lot of our Waiata Māori, our, um, Mōteatea because those greats had passed on.

[00:10:56] Whirimako: So reflecting back to them, what did I feel? My [00:11:00] tears just fell just like how it is now. I didn’t know what I was missing. I didn’t know that it was gonna be a part of my future. Yeah, I, I think, I’m just gonna say a wairua. It’s a Wairua thing, it’s a spiritual thing. Why did you choose that song? Why that song? And why did I cry? Why did that song - why?

[00:11:25] Whirimako: As I said, it’s a Wairua thing, it’s a spiritual thing. Now I know I’m a, a descendants of the composer of that song. Now I know. I felt, I felt I belonged to it. I felt it brought all my memories of childhood back to me. I missed it terribly, living in Australia. The, the deeper side of Te Reo Māori, I missed terribly.

[00:11:52] Whirimako: Not the, the, the fun parts. We had all the fun parts, all that, but there was still no Reo. But what I missed was Te Reo Māori, what I missed was the cultural [00:12:00] engagements. What I missed was sitting with the old people.

[00:12:03] Whirimako: Yeah, you gotta behave yourself. Um, serving them, being the runner for them, all of that, that makes you feel a part of a community.

[00:12:24] Narration: Jen: I am speaking Whirimako at a time when I’m about to move home to Aotearoa. When she did the same, she enrolled at Tea Tarangi. It’s the same school I’ve been attending in Nam Melbourne, so I was curious to know why someone who’d grown up speaking Māori as their first language would go back to Kura.

[00:12:45] Whirimako: Yeah, now that’s a good question.

[00:12:48] Whirimako: The power of losing your way. The power of losing your way when you’re away from your culture, your mountain, your river, your Kōrero. Therefore, you’re influenced by other strong cultures that have [00:13:00] all their language, all their relatives, all around you. And I shut down my Reo to the point that I actually lost my confidence in speaking.

[00:13:11] Whirimako: So I thought in that dark moment, I need to make up my mind, I’m losing my way. So I went off and entered into Ta Ataarangi . Um, what a beautiful process to go into as well, because it took away from you getting all embarrassed, putting that spotlight on you, as you do when you’re in, um, fearful grounds. And I, I loved it. I enjoyed it. I, I hadn’t even finished the, the year off and my tutor, um, tapped me on the shoulder and said, ‘Look, I’d like you to teach a hospitality class here’. Um, a Te Reo Māori perspective on hospitality. I didn’t know what I was doing, but I had a beautiful tutor, obviously saw something in me. And it was right at that turning point, I [00:14:00] had to make up my mind, ‘Are you gonna do this Whiri? Or are you going to go to music? Because it seems to me that, um, you need to strike while the iron is hot. Is it the music, or is Te Reo Māori, and be a teacher in Te Reo Māori? Which, which one Whiri? Whatcha gonna do?’

[00:14:18] Whirimako: And I knew I want that soothing sound. I want that sound that rocks me and makes me feel safe. I want that tone. I want that sound. I will die for that sound. If I don’t get that sound, I’ll die too. So I’m damned if I do it, and I’m damned if I don’t do it. So I chose, I’m going to head off and go and put myself into spaces and places where I can write about who I am as a Tūhoe Wāhine, and as a Māori  Wāhine, and as a Māori [00:15:00] parent.

[00:15:11] Whirimako: Shrouded in the mist. When the mist covers us, we become shrouded.

[00:15:20] Whirimako: The personification of the mist. She, Hinepukohurangi um, so that is the name.

[00:15:35] Narration: Jen: For me, the mist around fit is many things. It’s a kind of mystique for sure. It’s the Korowai of her Tīpuna, but it’s also a layer of opacity around her significance. A sense of not being seen, of not being celebrated and centered right from the start. This is why ‘Hinepukohurangi’ is such an important album to me. [00:16:00] Despite her critics and the fear they created, Whirimako made a record that brought her people with her, and changed Māori music.

[00:16:09] Donny Te Kanapu: Yeah, ‘Shrouded In The Mist’, her first album was, um, really risky for Mum, because of the, the use of the traditional manawa wera and waiata koroua or waiata mōteatea the traditional songs from home. And she, she used, she modernized them and put them into the, into her album, which was quite controversial in our own Iwi. Um, but when you hear her stories of why she did it, it’s a beautiful thing.

[00:16:37] Donny Te Kanapu: Now, I know personally, I believe that she did it because that was her spiritual backbone, was her own Taonga. So she wants to start with, um, with her gifts. The first thing she wants to do is represent who she is and where she comes from. I thought it was really transcending. Um, so that album in particular for me was somewhat a type [00:17:00] of a, a meditation album when I used to listen to it, used to- for me, I used to live in Australia. I remember I used to listen to it in bed, um, to go to sleep. And I felt it was just like that spiritual umbilical cord that would connect me back to home. And I, I feel like that album’s done that for a lot of people. Um, it has that - it’s not just Māori music, but there, there’s a deeper connection and a Kaupapa to it.

[00:17:22] Donny Te Kanapu: Um, and I feel like the sounds that she used, the sounds in particular, to really enhance what the words meant. And that’s the cool thing that mum did. You know, she was really, um, she gave herself the, the license to be creative, and to grab these songs and to give them a new life, so to speak. But in a really still respectful way that still maintain the Mana, the Tapu, the sacredness, and the heritage of what they meant.

[00:17:56] Whirimako: I shelved that album, ‘Shrouded In The Mist’, for five [00:18:00] years because I was in an emotional t- I was distressed. Making the album, that was okay. Recording, loved the experience. Then the moment came to release it. It’s all done. It’s beautiful. I so wanted to sing my ancestor’s songs. I’m gonna reclaim, I’m claiming back my Tīpuna Waiata.

[00:18:26] Whirimako: I’m not saying you can’t sing it. I’m just saying I’m in this space too. And no, I’m not in Kapa Haka, but I’m in this space on, based on Whakapapa. And I think how generous, how generous of this Whakapapa to release those songs for all of us to enjoy, how generous. So my generosity is there too with my songs, but I didn’t look at it at the time.

[00:18:49] Whirimako: What was the difficulty? I was distressed and hearing voices from haters in my head going, ‘Who do you think you are? [00:19:00] What gives you the right? Where’s your Kapa Haka?’ Aren’t we so hard on ourselves as Māori? And it was so good, I was fearful of it. It was so good, I was fearful. I was so lucky to have Billy to record that for me, even though we had some very, you know, ding dongs after. I was so lucky to have him recorded for me though. So he pushed that out of me, and I loved it because my whole world was just about Waiata. Night and day, first thing when I wake up, last thing when I go to sleep, that’s what I’m doing. If I’m not doing music and writing songs and researching for my topic, I’m doing Whakapapa, and simultaneously both go at the same time.

[00:19:45] Whirimako: Why Whakapapa? Maybe because of all these names and names of ancestors helps in pronunciation. It helps to ground you. It, if, if I’m gonna go international, if I’m going to go national, [00:20:00] geez, I better know who I am. For goodness sake, you know? Um, and it’s helped me in terms of conversations with other Māori. And I know there’s a lot of Whānau out there still lost too, and don’t understand the importance of Whakapapa, and they miss out because they don’t feel it’s important. They miss out. How Whakapapa relates to some of the stories they’re telling. They’re telling.

[00:20:27] Whirimako: And the biggest shock for me, I, I guess, was yeah, I’m about to sign a contract, the last thing I want is my songs to end up on the back of a, an ad for, you know, Bendon underwear or something. And I, when I finally signed that was all my- I said, ‘You okay Billy? You don’t have to go back and look at my Iwi. I do’.

[00:20:50] Jen: Mm.

[00:20:51] Whirimako: And it’s like, ‘why did you do it in the first place anyway?’ Because I wanna identify myself. This is who I am.

[00:20:57] Jen: Hmm.

[00:20:57] Whirimako: These are actual stories that have happened [00:21:00] and these composers wrote about it ‘cause they want it to be remembered. What was the story? What was the story? It’s always about all the elements of us as a human being, what we’ve lost, who’s died, how do we deal with grief. And I think our Māori ancestors were clever as, because they put their grief into song and let it out. Clever as, so I put my grief into my songs and let it out. Where is my language? Kei hea taku reo. Grow and flourish, mariekura that’s another song of mine. Who am I talking to? Starting off with myself first, a one has to identify one’s own losses in mamae first. And then I asked myself this question, and that was why I finally signed up, was you’re not doing any justice if you don’t do it. You’re gonna make yourself mentally sick if you don’t sign off and release it.

[00:21:58] Whirimako: And why do we do it? [00:22:00] Because we wanna leave a legacy. We wanna leave a legacy for our Tamariki Mokopuna. I never want my Tamariki Mokopuna to ever go through the, who am I? Where do I come from? What’s my story? I never want them to go through that. So that first album has got a Whakapapa song on there, my Whakapapa on there, so that if this ever happens, maybe it’s a child that got given away that I didn’t know that belonged to my family, you know? That’s who we are on that album. That’s who we are.

[00:22:37] Narration: Jen: What I love about this album is how different every track is. You’ll have a lightning-paced Mōteatea, followed by a tender heartfelt Waiata. You can feel the deep love Whirimako has for her Tīpuna, as she connects with their words. And it strikes me how generous and brave it was for her to step into the public arena and [00:23:00] make sure this Taonga was recorded for future generations. I have so many questions about this, so I asked Whirimako if she’d take a listen with me.

[00:23:20] Whirimako: Right at the beginning there, Billy Christian and I are sitting in the studio and having a discussion about how to approach the Mōteatea called Engari te Titi the titi is a mutton bird. It’s a bird, it’s a delicacy that we eat. Uh, however, Bill and I, uh, we sitting there, we are talking about the environments of, of the mutton bird, but then I had already paid a visit to Waikaremoana which is one of the homes of the, the original composer, the only composer of this Waiata. [00:24:00] This Mōteatea, this, uh, ancient song for us, for Tūhoe in our collection Engari Te Titi. And the environment that she lived at Lake Waikaremoana. If you know the area, have been to the area, that when the winds lift up and blow, you could almost lean your body up against the wind and you won’t tip over.

[00:24:20] Whirimako: The wind will be blowing against you. So that was, uh, to capture, the wind sound that you hear was to capture where she came from. So the whole song she’s talking about being left in her age. I don’t know if it’s because they were unable to take her. Was everything done by foot or traveled by foot by Waka? But she was left in a part of, uh, Waikaremoana in a bay, in an inlet waikaremoana. Left there to hold the fort, to be the last sentinel of the place.[00:25:00]

[00:25:01] Whirimako: Is Mihi-ki-te-kapua matua who Mihi-ki-te-kapua likens herself, and I get the, the sense of feeling that her only friends that are with her are the birds. And she’s observing the bird’s actions. And she’s saying and using her own sense of emotion and feelings. I guess I’ve been alone. Uh, where she likens, unlike the mutton bird that is flying above the sky, and they fly in pairs.

[00:25:37] Whirimako: And I hear through the lyrics as we’ve listened onto to the lyrics ‘Nōku ano koia ko te wareware’. Perhaps it was either that forgot that everyone was moving out and I should have got ready. And now I’m with regret ‘cause I’m all by myself.

[00:25:55] Whirimako: So what is that message? Take the opportunity or live with regret, [00:26:00] you know? Can we flip up something old, ancient, and glean some positive messages out of it? Uh, ‘Ko au anake rā i mahue nei ē’, I’m the only one that’s been left behind. Perhaps there’s a story about learning our own Indigenous flavor of who we are, so that we don’t get left behind.

[00:26:29] Whirimako: So that’s my Uncle Hirini Melbourne’s sample. Uncle Hirini is lying in that cemetery. He’s, uh, my Uncle Hirini is my mother’s second cousin.

[00:26:43] Whirimako: What you hear? The breath. It’s almost like it’s got a reverb on it, right?[00:27:00]

[00:27:19] Whirimako: Yeah, that’s the one where the rangatira got taken out and killed, and his ure was, uh, preserved in a calabash and given, um, where he had many women rangatira that wanted to marry him. Uh, the motu ora, the here was being one who arrived and she was given the calabash. She said eat, then she realized, oh no, this is her intended. So yeah, just giving it to them

[00:27:48] Narration: Jen: For context, she’s just been handed a bowl with her husband-to-be’s cooked penis.

[00:27:53] Whirimako: Yeah, she’s saying, ‘Oh, what a waste’. So, yes they’re called [00:28:00] Kaioraora. They’re, they’re, they’re very, uh, defiant compositions.

[00:28:24] Jen: You had a special word for it. It’s not a Mōteatea, it’s not Haka, it is a…

[00:28:29] Whirimako: Kaioraora

[00:28:32] Jen: Kaioraora

[00:28:33] Whirimako: Yeah. Kaioraora Uh, composition for, for, um, revenge. For, to, for disdain behavior, that’s gonna, you’re gonna cop it.

[00:28:44] Jen: I hope you never write one for me.

[00:28:47] Whirimako: I hope I don’t write one for anybody. I sort of kind of roundabout, but it always ends up being about love.[00:29:00]

[00:29:07] Whirimako: Torete te Kiore the scream of the kiore,

[00:29:10] Jen: The mouse?

[00:29:11] Whirimako: Yes. The rat. The rat. The ratatatat. A scream of the rat.

[00:29:17] Jen: Also, what is the bang?

[00:29:21] Whirimako: Oh, great. So the, uh, again, more trade secrets. Billy took great delight in, uh, letting me hear different sounds that he’s created for each Waiata. The, so the loud bang, uh, it, it’s so deliberate, isn’t it? It’s a, um, a basketball in an, a very empty basketball hall. Crikey, I find myself holding my breath just to listen.[00:30:00]

[00:30:00] Whirimako: As far as I’m concerned, singing is about culture. We sing after a speech. We sing to acknowledge someone in the room. Uh, we sing to bring joy. We sing to settle people down. Uh, so it’s very much, uh, an important part of the fabric. I’m saying important, it is important. It’s not just about the lyrics, it’s the stories. And not just about the stories, it’s the connection of Whakapapa. Not just the connection of Whakapapa, it’s the awareness of everything else that might have been happening for them at the time, for the composer. Um, it is like having a scribe telling you, this is how I’d heard it to be, this is the story so we won’t forget, it’s gonna be in this song.[00:31:00]

[00:31:08] Whirimako: The actual words, the tone, the expression is healing. I think that’s what I liked about sitting next to old people. And sitting next to my people that Te Reo. Whether it was humorous or not, what they said, it was that feeling like, you know, I know exactly where I am. I know exactly who I am. I don’t need to prove nothing about who I am, because looking at those old people, that’s who I am, and that’s where I’m going to.

[00:31:44] Jen: Hmm.

[00:31:45] Whirimako: Hopefully not a cranky one either. Not a cranky old woman picking up on everyone’s wrong stuff. Hopefully not. Those, don’t be like that eh [00:32:00] Whiri.

[00:32:00] Jen: I look at your album covers and they’re like jazz classics.

[00:32:04] Whirimako: Yes.

[00:32:05] Jen: The way they’re lit, the way they’re often in profile. Um, they remind me of the album covers of Billie Holiday.

[00:32:13] Whirimako: Yes.

[00:32:13] Jen: Or, uh, Ella Fitzgerald.

[00:32:15] Whirimako: Yes.

[00:32:16] Jen: Um, but then I look closer and I see Moko Kauae. And I think, again, trailblazing. Not even knowing.

[00:32:25] Whirimako: Not even knowing. So for a long time Whānau, uh, what I called it, those still call it depressed. Depressed about why it’s so damn hard to break into the industry. Depressed about why it’s so damn hard that no one recognizes how beautiful our Reo is, on this space, in this space. Um, we need some famous Māori to be singing their Waiata Māori, you know, all those frustrations.

[00:32:52] Whirimako: And why is it that I feel like I need to get a haircut and get a real job? Because there’s no recognition of what it is [00:33:00] that I’m trying to achieve. For us to go back and find our Mōteatea. Our Mōteatea is an encasement of our histories. Uh, every line is completely different. It is unlike Western waiata, where you have, uh, verses. There are no verses. It’s a running narrative.

[00:33:22] Jen: Mm.

[00:33:23] Whirimako: There are no choruses. There’s no repetitive, because every word is precious. You don’t need to drive nothing home, you just need to read the narrative. Um, there are other things that concern me about copyrights as well. Uh, our copyrights of our Mōteatea. Um, so right now with APRA Performing Arts, and, and it has been, even when I started, ‘cause I’d had this chat with, uh, uh, one of the bosses there at APRA, is, uh, why is it that for 50 years I, after a composer dies, that the song goes into the public arena, for everybody to help themselves? Since when [00:34:00] did we say it’s okay to go into the public arena when you have no attachment to the history, no attachments at all to the composer?

[00:34:13] Whirimako: Hear me, hear what I just said. Most uncomfortable thing is to be asked. Um, in my early, early times of recording on ‘Shrouded In The Mist’, hadn’t can even come out that long. But ‘Whirimako I’ve made some music and, uh, it’s, you know, it’s house music and it goes with, um,’Engari te titi e tangi haere ana’.

[00:34:37] Whirimako: I shocked, horrified. ‘Is it okay if I can do that?’ Shocked, horrified that he’d done it in the first place without speaking to me, and no he was not Māori. And angry, all of that, and I ducked and dived and avoided him all that time. I couldn’t speak up. I couldn’t understand why I felt that way. I didn’t do this for you. I did this [00:35:00] for my people, to encourage them, there is beauty in what we call ancient. Without ancient, we are not here.

[00:35:36] Whirimako: Yeah, a lot of, lot of things like that, hey.

[00:35:39] Jen: Mmm.

[00:35:39] Whirimako: So that’s my Mōteatea, but you have a Hawaiian

[00:35:42] sing

[00:35:43] Whirimako: Kei Hea Taku Reo, I think it’s just wonderful. Why? Because they’re looking for them too. They’re, they’re asking the same question about their own language. They gotta be. Why do they relate to Kei Hea Taku Reo?.

[00:35:58] Whirimako: Why? [00:36:00] Maybe it’s because they like us, trying to reconnect and trying to stay in the bathing-ness of being connected.

[00:36:29] Jen: Just something that occurred to me there that I would love to get your thoughts on, um, is I love to think about where can we meet? You know, rather than all of the division, all of the sides, all of the stuff that we’re seeing around the world politically, right here at home in Aotearoa, uh, it’s, it is to divide and conquer. You know, it is the colonizer way. And it feels to me when [00:37:00] you speak about your music, that it’s a place where everyone can meet.

[00:37:05] Whirimako: Ah, of course seven generations Whānau. Seven generations. And that’s the thing too. Um, I read this little story in my Whakapapa research about my, um, about my pākehā side, my my Irish-Scottish side. And the values that they bought with them was education, was community people. That was the values that was very important as being there for centuries. Education, yeah. Community people, religion, yeah. Those, those three main aspects outside of business, outside of economy, outside of that. And, and I, then I, it, it just occurred to me, I think my ancestors came here because yeah, they had a rough, a rough deal where they came from with the famine. The most annoying thing is the disregard [00:38:00] and the negativity towards Māori people of this land. That’s the most annoying thing. Um, we’re all human beings. We all want the same thing. Why didn’t we think about that? That we all want the same thing. It’s about our Reo, about our culture, and to show those people out there that we are more than capable.

[00:38:19] Whirimako: And we love you too, okay. We, I love you too. And my audiences, this time around on the tour, was not predominantly pākehā, as it goes with jazz. It was fifty-fifty. So yeah, they took 20 years to bring our audience, our people together, and it sits side by side ,and not have a fight over who does Whirimako belong to? New Zealand or Te Reo Māori? Good question, hey? Good question. Who does Whirimako belong to? Te Reo Māori? Or to people? Or to Aotearoa? I realize it took me a long time to come to this, to just admit it and say, [00:39:00] okay, I’ve been working for my people and singing for my people, and that’s cool, that’s cool. But it’s even better still that I realize I belong to both.

[00:39:09] Jen: Mm.

[00:39:13] Whirimako: Scottish-Irish on this side.

[00:39:14] Jen: Mm.

[00:39:16] Whirimako: Māori on the other side.

[00:39:17] Jen: Mm.

[00:39:19] Whirimako: And if neither one came together in Whakapapa, I’m not possible.

[00:39:37] Narration: Jen: ‘Everybody’s Trying To Find Their Way Home’ is made by me, Jen Cloher, with Bez Zewdie and Jon Tjhia.  Ngā mihi nui to Donny Te Kanapu and Jordan Te Arangi Anasta for their manaaki.. And Whirimako Black for her generous and big-hearted Kōrero. This show is made with support from Creative Australia and Three Triple [00:40:00] R 102.7FM. You can find more information about this episode, and listen to season one, at everybody’s trying podcast dot com. And if you like this episode, share it with someone who needs to hear it.